Can We Get Along? An Unscripted Conversation between an English Major Tech Evangelist and Her Computer Scientist Fiancé
It was a sleepy Sunday morning as I combed through tweets looking for juicy bits about what's happening in the world of the web. A single click led me to this Fast Company article, Sexist, Sexist and More Sexist: Digg Responds to Fast Company's Women in Web 2.0. After reading it, I clicked over to this Huffington Post article on the same subject. Two articles. One honoring women in tech, the other discussing the backlash that came with the honoring.
I asked Joel what he thought. I asked, "If you don't commit code or know databases, does that mean you're not really part of the tech scene?" We turned on the mic and started recording because the conversation was passionate and honest. These are the notes from the convo, but listening to it will help you understand what the notes mean. We both hope this opens up a dialog that will go much further than this blog post can or should. That by talking about it honestly and with gentleness, we can help to make positive change not just for women in tech, but for people in tech...and at the end of the day, it impacts all of us.
--- Notes from the podcast. Click the link at the top of the post to listen. It's about 25 minutes long. ---
Evangelists versus Builders...Builders think Evangelists often take all the glory, saying, "I built this," rather than crediting the team that has built the technology.
Maybe it's just that we all want to be appreciated for our gifts.
Ways that Developers + Social Media "Experts" can coexist peacefully
Give specific credit to the developer. Name developers by names rather than taking credit for building it yourself. Know your Dev team intimately and put them first.
How would your hundreds of thousands of lines of beautiful code reach the light of day without an Evangelist to get out there and connect it with the people that matter.
It's primarily women on the front end communicating about the product and it's primarily men building it on the back-end.
Builders can build without Evangelists. It's a symbiotic relationship - there's nothing to evangelize without the builder. Ideas are cheap...building is hard.
Engineers and English Majors. The chasm widens. Cultural experiences allow you to speak to people on their terms. Talking with a Developer vs with a Humanities Expert.
How can we better appreciate each others' gifts?
If women are primarily in front of the scenes...and men are primarily behind them...how can we view each other as equals? How can we work together on this?
Do Evangelists/Social Media types even realize there's this tension?
Developers want to create. Do Evangelists not want to create?
Maybe Evanglists/Social Media types are not good at sharing the spotlight and the mic?
Sexism - is that the real problem here? Joel encourages us to reflect on anonymity - "the beauty and downfall of the internet."
Does the answer come down to a comma?
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The articles we talk about in this podcast are not the only ones I've seen on this subject and our podcast on the topic is far from exhaustive, but a commenter on the Huffington Post by Allyson Kapin asks a question to which the response deserves mention.
User wagadog commented, saying, "None of these women are programmers by trade, by the way. They're all evangelists and managers and "leaders". When was the last time any of them checked in any code?"
One of the women recognized in the post, Rebecca Moore, responded to the comment. I think her response deserves a standing ovation. She says:
One should be careful about jumping to conclusions here. I'm one of those included by Allyson, and do happen to be a computer scientist and a "programmer by trade". I've checked in hundreds of thousands of lines of code, I've written software for products that have made hundreds of millions of dollars, and currently have a patent pending. No big deal, lots of people have done this, including probably many of the women on this list. I'm more proud of having poked my head up out of code-cranking-mode one day and had some larger insights about digital mapping technology and how it could be applied and further developed for the significant benefit of society. I'm sure that there are many, many women more deserving than I of being on this list, but kudos to Allyson for recognizing that there is more than one way to be a technology pioneer. And I suspect that lots of the "boys" we'd laud for technology contributions today are similarly varied.
I applaud programmers for developing the technologies we evangelists and social media folks talk (and often, rave) about. I also applaud those working to bring these technologies into the light of day so that they may provide, "significant benefit" to society. We hope this conversation sparked something within you that can help illuminate your way.
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Photo cred: Many, many thanks to Greeblemonkey for capturing and allowing me to use her image.
Monday, November 17, 2008
Reader Comments (11)
I think the chauvinistic males are more outspoken than the ones who are not and tend to take the stage on such venues like digg. I believe it's the same scenario as in that ZiS episode when you were talking about the understated role of women in Buddhism.
That's why Joel and I decided to have this convo in a public way - for other folks trying to express their support for women (in tech)...to know that it's cool to do so. Way cool. And that there's a way through as long as we're determined to mutually support and uplift one another other. And yes on the Women in Buddhism episode. I believe I took a bit of flack for that b/c I used too many generalizations and blanket statements...it was earlier in my podcasting days and I just said whatever was on my mind. I really try to reign in my speech and go about it as mindfully as I can now. Getting fired up is good...it's resorting to finger pointing and name calling that is problematic. Every conversation about this, had out of and spoken with, compassion, is a step in the right direction.
I'm kinda curious of the demographics of the people who visit your site. If like-minded people tend to group together then wouldn't you public addressing of this issue just fall upon the ears of those who already agree with your viewpoints? Just a thought
I don't believe that a single website or podcast alone can address this issue. Lots of voices have to address it. Ours are but two and yes, I believe they matter very much.
Oh, please don't get me wrong. I do think that such a thing matters, and it has a broad scope of influence because it is on the web. I'm just curious on how it will disseminate to those who really need to hear it.
Crap I meant that as a reply... Also, personally I'm not a mover and a shaker so it just might be hard from my perspective to see how the dissemination process could work.
This is such a sensitive topic for me. I love it. I hate it. I think it is so important that we should really talk about it and then I feel it is all worthless ...what will come of it anyways? I am a techie. I love being techie. A coder. I am good at it. I love the feedback it gives me. I also have a degree in business. I can use my logic and brain in my business. I communicate pretty well - so I am marketing (just started) my startup as well. But how long will I do ALL of it myself. It is just the start - it is good to set the core of everything up myself - but surely I will have to let go and delegate if it takes off, right? I have to choose. And in spite of being an uber geek all my life, I am going to choose to delegate the s/w development. I think it is cool that I can do a bunch of things but that is what has ALWAYS gotten me in trouble. Grew up in India. Socially, it is a man's world, It was 15years ago - no idea now. Undergrad, there were more girls in CIS than boys. It never occurred to be that some things would be challenging once I got into the corporate world .... With every new project I have had to prove myself. I am a woman and I can communicate. That makes it doubly worse. I do not fit the "programmer profile" - so I am pushed back even more. I always give it some time - to have my first small victory (sometimes, I craft them myself) and that is when they will even start to consider me a techie .... but sooner that later I am in the flow and am enjoying the awe of being a "geek-babe". And then, when we had to fight the ranks to get sell one tech solution over the other (usually selling open source ;)), I was always the natural choice - the "talker". I have the guts and honestly, as much as I love programming, I love sticking my neck out and getting in a fight or two - with the big guys ...and we have to note that not all programmer types will do that ;). Strangely enough, the biggest victories in my technical career have come as a result of non-technical efforts. That is where I have stood out - and done what the others around me have chosen not to do.. Man, I am rambling. But the point of all this is yes, there is certainly a gender aspect to it. It is also about how web 2.0 has given a lot more women the opportunity to do something that fits with their life stages. And yes, it is about mutual respect and appreciation. I think the solution to this is about looking past the gender or roles. No matter what we are doing, people who go above and beyond their defined roles deserve recognition and appreciation. People who do what we cannot do deserve respect. Let us use these differences to make the whole a win-win. Now I sound preachy, so I will stop :) Would have loved to make this a podcast, but my 2 year old is less than cooperative when it comes to things like this! Enjoyed this GwenBell!!!
What a great conversation to throw open! It seemed like you considered the humanities types and the techie types disparate categories but many of the folks I know are a lot of both. I was a technical writer before staying home with my daughter, and found that the worst employees were the ones who were afraid of the technical stuff. Those of us who embraced it found it embraced us back. The company I worked for for five years sent me to conferences, compensated me well and fairly for my work, gave me somewhere to go every day, and put me on a fantastic team of people to work with who all wanted to be working with words and using our technical skills. I was lucky to be able to ride my bike down the Creek Path to work every day. I have enjoyed how the internet boom has allowed me to feel what it is like to be appropriately compensated for being able to write well, the marketable skill I did get from my literature and writing degree. (It only pains me that every working woman does not share in this valuation of her skills, because I think teachers also deserve to bring home at least as much as programmers. Programmers and doctors and lawyers are lauded as professionals and larded with cash but think of how it would be to pay teachers $100K a year, how it would be to truly honor them as professionals entrusted with the futures of today's youth. I digress, but ...) My point is we have to always be willing to recognize how many different skills we have and value more of them in our daily work with one another, whatever our gender. It also needs to be okay to acknowledge your life at work, to take your kid or your mom to the doctor, go home for the couch delivery. It needs to be okay to be a skilled communicator and a coder, or a woman who is a skilled coder and a less-than-comfortable communicator, or a man who is a skilled communicator but hasn't developed his technical side. One could make an argument that women are more often the key communicators and evangelists because of social conditioning (to be good listeners, nurturing, nice, helpful, supportive, etc.) but as we see here in the comments there are lots of us coding and communicating alike. I like this notion of Web 2.0 providing a fresh opportunity to find new models for acknowledging our many facets.
Thank you for sharing these insights with us, ThinkMaya...I think you have a blog post in the making here....you're right to point out that this gives women the opportunity to grow in the web as they move through the many stages of life...I love that. Thanks again for jumping into the convo and I look forward to continuing it in the months ahead.
Beautifully written and argued. I agree with every point you make. There's nothing for me to add except a thank you.
I'm the author of the article Cracking the Boys Club on Huffington Post. I stumbled across your blog tonight and I want to thank you for posting this and discussing these issues in your podcast. It’s really great to see.